EP. 024

Special episode: Student mailbag Q&A

Kaleigh and Paul tackle questions from Creative Class students in this special “mailbag” edition. Plus: They ask each other one burning question at the end of this episode.

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Kaleigh:           This is a special episode of the Creative Class podcast and this is our mailbag episode where we are going to answer some questions from students and just kind of share our answers on a variety of different questions. So we can jump right in here with Question #1 I guess that’s a nice way to kick things off. So our first question came from Lyn and she asked, “If you could talk to your younger self what mistakes have you made along with your business journey that you would steer yourself away from?” I’ll let you answer that first Paul.

Paul:                Everything. It’s true though, like I think about when I started freelancing and how I work and I think about how I work after I’ve been doing it for a long time and I feel like there were two different businesses and I feel like even in the beginning it wasn’t a business. And that was mostly my mistake and that’s why I created creative class as well. But I feel like specifically like probably the biggest mistake I’ve made were about money, specifically collecting money and thinking that it was okay that clients could just like, “Oh yeah it’s just not working out this week to pay you can. I just pay you next week?”

And I have one client that it was on going like had work to do every week for them; and they got late, and then they got later, and then they got later and they are still not paying. But I was like, why don’t I stop the work because then I’m not going to get paid for the work for until six weeks. It was like I’ve just worked for free for six weeks since I’ve kept working. I basically told them that, “Hey it is optional to pay me because if you pay me or if you don’t I’m still going to do the same amount of work, so why pay me? That is probably the biggest one that I made. How about you?

Kaleigh:           Mine would be that when I started freelancing I tried to be everything to everyone; and I talked about this in a different episode as well. I literally offered a ton of services from social media to every kind of copy writing you can think of. I would say yes to any job that came in my way and so I ended up doing a bunch of random work and always have to learn everything from scratch with each new project. I was stressed out all the time and honestly not really making great money because nobody wanted to pay me expert level rates because I was just this random that they’ve hired to do this job.

So I wish I would have picked a niche sooner. I wish I would have specialized a lot sooner. And if I would have done that a lot of things would have happen more quickly for me, everything from building up subject matter expertise to making friends within that industry and that leads to more referrals. Yeah, I think that would have changed things. Luckily I took the Creative Class a year in and that’s when I started getting more specialized in what I was offering and that’s when things really started to change for me. But I can see how you could easily dwindle away two to five years just kind of trying to figure it out and not really having any luck and being super frustrated all the time because that is where I started  so that’s why I would have changed.


Paul:                Lyn didn’t ask this but I’m asking this because I’m curious. What would you tell your starting of freelancer self to keep doing?

Kaleigh:           I would say keep learning the technical stuff about the writing work that you are doing. I mean having that foundation has been extremely helpful for me and there is always new things to learn and to build upon within that, so do that. And probably also like try harder to make friends online with people you do similar work, those are the two big things. What about you?

Paul:                I think the biggest thing for me would be to just live below your means because with freelancing it can have a bunch of feast or famine time. So I think probably the thing that helped me the most was always just paying myself just enough to live the way I wanted to live and then saving everything else – savings, investments.

I would tell myself to do more of that. We have a whole episode on that if you miss it earlier in this season talking about investing your savings, but that I think. I’m glad I made that decision in my very early twenties to start saving and investing. I’m glad I did now that I’ll be forty in a month, I’m glad that I did that.

So next question, if you are starting out and have a really small budget to spend on your business what are the must haves you should focus on right away and what can wait until later?

Kaleigh:           Okay so my answer is going to seem really bias because I’m going to recommend the Creative Class, of course. But I say that out of personal experience because I’m super-duper cheap. I never spend money on anything for my business and I spend the money on Creative Class when I was a year in to freelancing. I think three or four years ago now.

And it had a huge impact to my business in a lot of different areas not just in like the business process side of things which that helped me a lot. Like I said it helped me find an area to specialize in and help teach me how to do a lot of efficiency things. I was spending less time getting started and wrapping up projects so that was amazing and it is not very expensive honestly to buy the course. And again I know this sounds super bias, it is one of the few things I spent money on and it really helped me a lot so it is a very honest recommendation.

The things that I think that could wait until later are the fancy tools. Like I said I’m super cheap. I don’t spend hardly any money on tools or software which is the industry that I write for but I mean I use the free version of my accounting software. I use Google docs a lot of the time. I use the free version of Grammarly I don’t feel like you have to have the big fancy tools and like really slick conference calls solution and all this stuff. You can get by with the free version of a lot of different things until you get to a point where it is not working for your business anymore and so I think it is okay to hold off on those things. What about you?

Paul:                I’ll start with what you can hold off on, fax machines. Definitely hold off on fax machines.

Kaleigh:           You don’t need a fax machine.

Paul:                Somebody was like, “What do you mean you don’t have a fax machine for your business?” I’m like, “What do you mean? It is not 1987.” I don’t understand. The other thing, business cards; unless you are meeting people in real life in situations where you would hand somebody a business card. I’ve had so many boxes of business cards were I’ve gone through like two or three business cards out of five hundred. I don’t know.

The other thing is paying rent for a business even a co-working spaces. I think co-working spaces can be awesome and I know a lot of people who work in co-working spaces but you don’t have to. Both of us have just rooms in our houses and then we can be close to our pets as well. There are some co-working spaces you can bring pets although probably not rats. I think some of the things that can wait would be those things I think those are just kind of holdovers from the way business work like 20 or 30 years ago.

And unfortunately literature specially if you are looking for government websites for how to start a business which a lot of people do. I mean, that’s even where I started looking. A lot of that stuff can be outdated. And I think same as you expensive software I would never buy I think for my business in 20 years I probably bought five computers at the most or maybe every four or five years I upgrade my computer. You don’t need the fanciest one. The refurbished Macs are exactly the same as the new Macs. You don’t need a fancy Mac to start a business.

I think what you should spend money on would be and this is kind of ties in the next question is taxes. I’ve always spent money on an accountant and I was always been glad that I did.

Kaleigh:           Let’s roll right in to that question. The question is from Will he said how do you handle or prepare your taxes as a freelancer?

Paul:                I ask a smarter person than me to do my taxes. I’m incorporated in Canada if you were a corporation you are legally not allowed to do your taxes unless you’re a charted accountant. So I have to hire a charted accountant which I would do anyways. This isn’t based on data this is just based on Paul’s brain. I think a good accountant should save you more money than they charge you, for the most part it always kind of work out that way for me.


In the beginning I was paying a much cheaper accountant to do work because I was making a lot less money. I think I’ve hired five or six accountants. I have a bad track record with accountants as well. But I’m happy with the one that I have now. I went looking for an accountant because probably that would be the next question that somebody would have. I would look for somebody who understands what freelancing is and understands at least a little bit of type of work you do.

If your accountant doesn’t know what Stripe or Paypal is that’s how you get paid is a bit of an issue. If your accountant doesn’t know how to deal with people who pay for your services from different countries, if you do that probably would be a red flag, so I would look for that. And how I handle and prepare my taxes is I pay somebody a professional. How about you?

Kaleigh:           So I helped with the book keeping side of things and it is super basic. It is literally like old school booklet pen and paper month to month, just tracking expenses incoming and outgoing. And then at the end of the year I take everything over to my accountant and she does all the paper work. She does all the monthly filings for my regular tax installments that I pay on a month to month basis. She takes care of all that. Because like you said the thought of doing my own taxes makes me ill. I don’t want to do it. It scares me. I think I’m going to mess it up I’m happy to pay a couple of $100 to the accountant that I work with to have her do it for me.

Like even I she is not saving me more than I’m paying her I’m happy that she’s doing it for me. The stress that she removes from my life from the simple equation is well worth what I pay her. So that was one of the biggest things that almost kept me from freelancing was that I don’t know how to handle the business taxes I’m super intimidated by that, and so by outsourcing that just little tiny piece of my day to day business it has made my life so much easier.

Paul:                I agree and when I get a letter from the government from the tax office, CRA in Canada is basically the IRS equivalent. I just give that to my accountant and they deal with it. Because like you get a letter from the government I don’t even understand this says most of it.

Kaleigh:           I know, it’s scary speak. I don’t know what they are saying.

Paul:                I send it to my accountant they tell me what it means and what I need to do and then I just like they are basically government translators for me. How do you deal and this is from Dirk. How do you deal with exceptions coming up like the kids are getting sick or in our case we will say pets are getting sick or tasks take more time? How do you deal with exceptions?

Kaleigh:           So we talked a little bit about this in one of the other episodes. I think it is good to have a network of people that you can either sub contract out to hire directly to do work for you when this things come up. Usually that is a person does do similar work that you trust that you know, does similar quality work for me that is really important thing to have and that is something that I have pretty much since I started freelancing is a network of handful people that I can call if something crazy happens.

And then the other side of that I think is just really good communication with your client, you don’t have to give the details of whatever crazy thing is going on in your life but just be upfront about any expected delays keep them in a loop. You never want them to be guessing about where you are at on a projects, so just be sure that you are being upfront about what is going on or is there is an expected delay. If there is a delay when it’s going to be resolved when the updated due date is or deadline is whatever it may be. That is my two fold answer I guess. What about you?

Paul:                I would say definitely what you said, and then the other thing is that I would say is if you know you are going to be late don’t tell the client that you are going to be late after you are late. Tell them before the thing is going to be late. It manages expectations a whole lot better.

The other thing is buffer for exceptions as much as you can. So if you know something is going to take you three hours don’t tell the client hey you will get this in three hours because then you have no wiggle room. You need to able to wiggle. So if I would say something like you will receive this in two days even though I know it will take three hours just because who knows what is going to come up in the next three hours. I don’t want to be locked in my room like I have to keep working the dead line. I would say give yourself a wiggle room and if you know you are going to be late tell the client before the thing is late. It is scary to do but it will always going to work out in your best interest there.

Kaleigh:           Good advice. So the next question is from Selvy she says, “I’m 43 and I wonder if in 10 years my age would be a problem for my clients or not? Today my age is an advantage I have expertise, experience, etc. but in ten years will it be a weakness? So Paul I’ll let you start with that.

Paul:                Old man internet gets to answer this one. So when I was 19, I was like who is going to want a designer that’s like twenty nine or thirty nine. I was twenty nine I was doing websites. I don’t think it matters I think especially in this newer industries content writing for SAS didn’t exist 20 years ago, web design didn’t exist twenty years ago. So there are a ton of examples of people who are older doing those things because it just hasn’t existed for that long.

And I think that expertise is never a draw back if you are forty three and have a ten years of experience it doesn’t matter if you are fifty three, it matters that you have ten years of experience doing the thing that you are doing. And you are probably in that time going to build up a good network of people who are referring you work or expertise in the niche if you’re American or not but the niche. I think our age it is a problem when we think it’s a problem. Maybe that is naïve I don’t know what you think.

Kaleigh:           I think it can go the opposite way too because I know that when I was getting started and I was twenty five years old I was like whose going to want to hire some twenty five year old who is just trying to figure all this out. So I mean it goes both ways too and as long as you are consistently learning and you are always open. As long as you are never stuck on the mentality of well I know everything so I don’t need to learn anymore. I think that’s when you could run into problems and that could happen at any age.

So as long as you are open to keep learning then I don’t think the age number matters so much. And you made a good point the type of work we are doing this days as freelancers is through the medium of the computer so a lot of the time the age question doesn’t even come up. I don’t think any of my clients know how old I am.

Paul:                Same. Most people think I’m younger because I’m vegan so my skin looks really good.

Kaleigh:           It does its glowing.

Paul:                It is, thank you. I still get carded at the liquor store and the legal age for drinking here is nineteen. I’m twenty years older than that and I still get carded, so I don’t think any clients never asked me how old I am, or they’ve been like oh you are like nineteen like I’m thirty six.

Kaleigh:           You are just like, uh ha yeah.

Paul:                Yeah I’m nineteen. So Surge wants to know, how do you say no to a client?

Kaleigh:           So this is something that I really struggled with when I was getting started because I mentioned before like when a job came in my way I was like, “Yey money”, which I think a lot of people can relate with. It wasn’t until I started getting more confident and more specialized in my work that I started saying no. And now I say no all the time, literally, multiple times a week no.


But there is always a no but that is kind of I wanted to segway there. It is always a no but it is an opportunity to introduce them to somebody else I can refer maybe another brand that specializes on the type of work that they are looking for. So it is still an opportunity to be a connector person. I think the secret is knowing and being comfortable with the fact that saying no doesn’t mean that you are always going to lose out on money it means that you are only going to say yes to the things that are really good fit that you can do a really good job on and that you are going to enjoy while you are working on.

Paul:                Yeah I like that. I think as well in the beginning I felt like I would get offended if a client ask for something outrageous or for a potential client you are just like, what do you mean it doesn’t cost $500 to build Facebook, to build the next Facebook. You know how many times people came to like oh I’m looking to build the next Facebook, me like okay.

So I think for me saying no is kind of a like you said it’s no but in my case that kind of bring my mind to I would say no but I will explain why I’m saying no and give them another option. Just like you said maybe as connecting to somebody else who is a better fit or maybe it saying this is why this request is unreasonable like oh can you turn this around by tomorrow? I might be well no all of this things are required and in the proposal it says I’m going to deliver it in a week so why would I do it in a day.

The other point that I would make to saying no is that I would make it not personal, so I would make it more like a rule. If somebody ask me can you design a massive ecommerce store for ten thousand products. I would be no I don’t do that type of work. It is not I don’t want to work with you it’s just I don’t do that kind of work that what my specialty is. Maybe you should connect with this person who does that kind of work, so I try to make it more global and less personal then no and also give like you said like a suggestion for an alternate thing or an alternate person to hire.

Kaleigh:           So our next question the comes from Veronica and she says, how many hours do you work in a day, a week, a month and what is your ideal work life coexistence? That’s a good question.

Paul:                That’s a good question. I think it varies if we talk averages it would probably be about thirty hours a week for me but I don’t think that averages tells the whole story. So I think there is a couple weeks of the year where I probably work fifty to sixty hours a week and I don’t think I can work more than my brain is not set up to work more than that many hours. In my 20’s, I can totally just like sixteen hours a day work. It sucks that I burnt out really quickly doing that. But for me it is probably about thirty hours with the cavy at some week it’s definitely more but it is definitely more for a short sprint, so in any given month it probably be like eighty hours total, I think or whatever the math, like 120 hours totally.

Kaleigh:           Who knows, you get the idea folks.

Paul:                As far as the balance goes the ideal work life coexistence and it doesn’t always work this way because I’m imperfect but I try to get my work done as soon as I can so I can stop working for the day. I’m an early riser. I’m a morning person so if I can get my work done in the morning I don’t have to work in the afternoon especially if it is nice outside. I don’t think it is nice outside today it doesn’t matter. How about you what is your kind a weekly breakdown?

Kaleigh:           I would say also fall in the thirty to probably thirty four hours a week on average and that is pretty standard for me it does drop a little bit I will say that I do take a little bit more free time when it is nice out because it is so rare to be nice here in Central Illinois. So that in the summer months like I give myself provision to take a longer lunch break and go outside or I’ll take a morning off and go hiking or something like that.

So I build in some flexibility there and sometimes I do work on a Sunday afternoon or I say no to a few opportunities that I would normally said yes to. But again I kind of factored that in as I’m looking at the winter months versus the summer months and I know that’s ultimately my bigger plan. On a day to day basis my ideal work and life coexistence is that I want to be sure that I can get eight hours of sleep every night that is super important to me health wise. I want to be sure that I can get in a couple walks outside with the dog that is a huge thing for me. If I don’t do that I feel like I had too much to do today, my balance is off.

And then I also like to quit about the same time every day I stop working around about 4 o’clock on average four in the afternoon and then that gives me the time to like do yoga or go exercising, or go for a run or something because before when I started freelancing I would just work all day and sit on this chair and then by the end of the day I was burnt out and I was tired and I missed any opportunity to do anything else throughout the day. So now I just make it a priority and so that is kind of my long winded answer on what the balance looks like.

Paul:                I think that makes sense. So how do you manage your client’s leads and projects?

Kaleigh:           I’ll start with this one it is pretty simple I don’t mean I don’t have a lot of clients at one time so I don’t need like a CRM or anything like that it is literally just one to one communication. I usually just use email sometimes phone but usually just email. And I do have a spreadsheet that I take notes on when to follow up with people when it’s been a long time that is pretty much extent of it. It is pretty simple though. How about you?

Paul:                Same I’ve tried project management software and I found that I had to be tech support for that project management software for every client that I invited to use it. I can’t even figure Asana. I can’t even say the word.

Kaleigh:           It’s not a good start.

Paul:                No, I logged in to it and I couldn’t figure out and I felt bad about myself and I just like I’m just going to go back to Google docs. So for me it’s the same it’s the spreadsheet and there is a lesson in Creative Class which we probably do this exactly the same way because we figured it out while we were writing it. So I have a spreadsheet so I know when to follow up with people and typically a Google doc for notes on the projects so I don’t forget that something important.

Kaleigh:           Nice, pretty simple for both of us, it doesn’t have to be fancy or high tech. It can be pretty simple. Our last question from a student is from Martin and she said how can I convey authenticity online?

Paul:                That’s not a tough question at all. For me and I think we are both writers that is really important in writing is to have like that called authentic writing voice. I think practice sounds so silly. How do you practice being authentic? But for me I didn’t really know my writing voice was until I started to write more and more. Even in design I didn’t really find my voice for design until I just was designing all the time and putting out project after project. I started to see like simple is really appealing to me and this is why or this is kind of the visual language I want to have because I think this is the most effective thing that my previous clients was getting.

So I think as far as authenticity goes for work product I would say practice is the best thing as far as just being yourself. I always found that in myself didn’t really hurt my business and obviously I don’t know the other end. I don’t know if I pretended to be a super professional polished guy maybe I would have more work in more clients and stuff. I have been always the least polished person in the entire world I swear too much. I make ridiculous jokes but this never hurt my business in any way whatsoever. I still work with some amazing clients we talked about this on the enterprise client podcast episode.

I’ve worked with a bunch of Fortune 500 companies that don’t care if you are covered and I swear a lot, it never negatively impacted my business to just not be myself. I also think I’m smart enough to pretend somebody else, I feel like that this guy will like slip up and then it just go right back in to me and people would be very confused that I started out one way and ended up not that way. How about you? How do you convey authenticity online and in your work?


Kaleigh:           I think what you said is great just to kind of piggy back off that. My friend Emma Siemasko she is another writer that I work really closely with. She has this very bold personality. She is very funny like she has a newsletter called “Wacka doodles”. And she writes for a lot of the same SAS portion five hundred companies that I wrote for and she just recently started doing YouTube videos and I love it because it’s her authentic personality and what she told me when she and I met up for a co-working opportunity just a couple weeks ago she was talking about how it was a way for her to exercise her creative voice in a really natural way and still get her clients to know who she really is.

So I think that is the benefit of kind of being yourself online is that sure it might not be for all clients that want to work with you but for the ones who do connect with what you are putting out there it really reinforces the bond and it makes that relationship stronger because you are not putting on some façade you are being yourself. You have your quirks and you are showcasing them and you are not afraid of that.

And there is something about claiming the audities about yourself or your personal quirks and leveraging them as part of your personal representation online that makes you more appealing sometimes as a freelancer. Because like you said it can be exhausting to try to be this like corporate professional business person capital B capital P all the time. If you can just be yourself I think people connect with a lot easier.

Paul:                And reminds me of a story Marie Forleo, in the beginning of her career being on Oprah was a milestone that she wanted to have and she was like anybody that knows Marie. She is ridiculously hilarious and totally crazy and her videos that’s why people like her, that is why she has a ridiculously successful business. Guess what she’s been on Oprah. She is part of the super soul one hundred or whatever the top rank of a businesses that Oprah tells people to check out.

And so it doesn’t matter. And I think that in the end if you work for yourself if you are a freelancer is because you want to run your own business. So you are running a business that you don’t like or having to pretend to be somebody you are not, there is office jobs for that my friends. There are office jobs where you have to wear a suit or like a grey pencil skirt or something like that. I don’t want a suit, I’ve been to in person meetings at big companies and maybe is because I’m a designer or something that I just have to have nice shoes or something. But nobody really  cared or like I’ve never noticed anybody cares it never negatively impacted my business anyway just being me.


Kaleigh:           That’s a good take away, just be yourself. Ok, so you said you want to have one extra question at the end one for each other, do you want to go first or me go first?

Paul:                I want to go first.

Kaleigh:           Okay you go first.

Paul:                Alright, so I was thinking about this for the mailbag episode. I was like well I have a question for you that nobody asks so I’m going to ask you now. And you’re like maybe we should write it in the Google doc, no we didn’t.

Kaleigh:           No idea.

Paul:                This is a question you don’t even know. What I want to ask you is you are not a very over the top flamboyant personality. You’re I don’t say reserve but you are not crazy out there party animal Kaleigh but you still do things like teach at local library. You’re consider doing stand-up which is probably the scariest thing in the entire world to me, and this is what I really like about you is that you are willing to push your boundaries even though you are I guess you are an introvert.

Kaleigh:           I think yeah, I think I’m ambivert, like a little bit of both.

Paul:                But you are not super crazy out there party animal lampshade in your head, so why do you push your own boundaries?

Kaleigh:           For me it’s I am somebody who loves learning and who loves the challenge of something new, so all of those things for me are different ways to learn something new usually it’s hands on like the stand-up is very hands on.

Paul:                Throwing yourself into something.

Kaleigh:           Yes, literally, like standing in front of a group of people who are judging me. I think it’s just a challenge of a new way to learn rather than reading or listening to a podcast or watching a video or something like that, it is a more of a hands on way to experiment with trying to figure out who I am. I’m twenty nine and I feel like I still don’t know exactly who that person is but all of these challenges are an opportunity to kind of explore that a little bit more and so I think it is a good thing.

Paul:                Why though? I like you answer but I also don’t think it is a full answer. So I’m getting two questions but it is really a continuation of the same question. Why throw yourself into those situations that make you scared or nervous or whatever that word is?

Kaleigh:           I think it’s just curiosity, curiosity around the challenge, around how will it go, and what will I’ll learn putting myself in this terrifying experience and will I like it, like will I discover something new that I really like that I didn’t realize that I knew that I didn’t realize I liked or like super enjoyed maybe was even good at. I mean otherwise if I didn’t put myself in those situations I was just keep doing the same thing every day, that’s terrifying to me. I hate to much routine really like the uncertainty, well not uncertainty, but of messing things up a little bit I guess. Is that better?

Paul:                Yes but final related question. It’s our mailbag we get to make the rules. How do you get over your fear to do that? How do you go from maybe I should try stand-up or maybe I should teach something in person? Shit that scares me. How do you make the step to actually do the thing?

Kaleigh:           I like to get a little bit comfortable first, so like example with the stand-up. I’ve gone to the open mic night before and I’ve watched I’ve made my notes on potential jokes I want to tell. I’ve watched stand-up specials on Netflix. I’m learning about the process of how it should go to hopefully ensure success when I get up there and then part of it is just really pushing yourself past the uncomfortableness and doing it. I haven’t done it yet so I can’t speak too much to it. It’s next one say we will see if I go now I’m speaking it, so now I feel like I have to.

Paul:                Season 3 of Creative Class we will follow up on this, by then you will have a Netflix special, so we will know how it went.

Kaleigh:           Right, no pressure.

Paul:                That is the finale of questions that I had for you, the one question that I initially asked.

Kaleigh:           So my question for you is a little bit course specific because we spent a lot of time talking in this podcast about different specific topics but for you as the kind of creator of the course and who built this from scratch. What is the one most insightful thing you’ve learned from building and creating the course not once but twice and then the second part of that is, what is the most interesting thing that you’ve learned from students who have taken the course that you didn’t expect to learn?

Paul:                I’ll start with the second question first because that is the easiest to answer – confidence. Time and time again when I ask people what they got out of Creative Class it’s confidence which I never even thought of that going into making a course for freelancers that would be something to even think about because I don’t know how teach even if I did I probably be like how do you teach confidence in this shrug emoji. Honestly, I don’t know. But I think going through setting up the right process or systems for a freelancing business then you do get confidence and charging a better rate or having a set process sticking to your guns and having boundaries, so I think for me that is the most surprising thing that I’ve learned. What was the first part of the question again?

Kaleigh:           What is the one biggest insight that you got from building the course not once but twice? So you’ve done two iterations of it now. What have you learned along the way with that?

Paul:                What I’ve learned is that my assumptions can be wrong. Initially when I had the idea to create Creative Class I have thirty five lessons that I wanted to make which is a lot of lessons. And then I was thinking about this is going to take six to eight months for me to make, so what if I wiggle it down to only the lessons where the course will fall apart if they are not part of it just and it was seven. And I made those seven lessons and then I was instead of thinking I know what people want I’m going to sell a small product first and then I’m going to see for the type of people that bought the course, those were the types of people I want more of, what did they think was missing or what did they want that wasn’t part of the course to begin with, and then I got another five ideas for lessons and those lessons once I recorded them based on feedbacks from students. Those were more popular by double from what the seven word that I thought that I needed to add into the course.

So paying attention to what, and I kind of treat courses like software were I was like constant iterative development. So I’m always thinking like hey how can I make this better? How can I do onboarding sequences better? How can I do support better? That’s probably the biggest thing. I guess the other thing for question two that I was surprised about was that people crave community. Like the slack group is just like sounds marketing like people come for the lessons and stay for the community. And I think that’s really been surprising to me but it shouldn’t have been because I crave community, you crave community in freelancing and having a place for freelancers can talk to each other it is a win, somebody was like why don’t you charge for? One I don’t know how to charge for it and two I like being in that community it’s just part of the class, it’s like the course cost what it cost and then the Slack community just exists for perpetuity and unless Slack like for some reason goes away which I doubt would happen. Does that answer your question?

Kaleigh:           It does, thank you.

Paul:                Cool, I think we are at the end of our season.

Kaleigh:           I think so too, thanks to everybody who listened.

Paul:               Yeah, thank you very much for listening to Season 2 of the Creative Class.

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